[PhotoComix]

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Strange, this must be a Windows isse ... GIMP -- of any version, including the dev ones -- hasn't crashed on me in years ...

Windows issues are no too strange, most developer will immediately notice or be advised of serious issue on their OS, linux, and likely postpone the release after a fix
and anyway linux build are easy to replace

But there few use Windows, almost none the REAL thing (emulated OS ..are emulated, a good indication but no more )
So for windows problem are noticed only by Bugzilla reports, and you know problem reported in bugzilla may wait very long for a fix...
usually in much longer time that for a new release...and so automatically fixed by a more lucky windows build

And there is only 1 that seems be able/willing to build windows binary for Gimp, if the binary reveal problems is needed to wait he repeat the effort (but he will do only when is time to build a newer version )

Sure if was released a serious how to on how compile Gimp on Windows other will be maybe able to help, but there is no any usable guide to build Gimp 2.6 (or even 2.4, last unofficial was for 2.3 and even that was no too usable )..i mean not even a guide for nerd and computer geeks (only hope to get help is on the IRC , )

[PhotoComix]

PS to avoiding misunderstanding..sure the Dev team will never overlook problems ,even windows only problem, if they may be fixed at level of source code

but if the problem is not in the code but only in something wrong in the installer then the scenery is totally different.

Gimp staff do no provide binary only the code, and they may fix only the code

PS i edited the first message to add the link for the win 2.6.5 installer , since almost all windows users in need get lost when searching older gimp releases on Sourceforge

[willgoss]

Back to the Subject....

The Portable Gimp 2.6.6 is out with the same problem, opening the GEGL tool crashes Gimp......but when I tried G'MIC, pencil drawing it worked just fine.....normally I find Portable Gimp my version of choice.....

With Windows being the major OS, I am surprised at the negative attitude......

[0ion9]

Willgoss: What negative attitude ? The facts are,
a) All of the core contributors to GIMP run primarily Linux, and this has always been the case.
b) Consequently GIMP is oriented towards Linux.
c) Developing software for Windows is painful (compared to Linux software development, it is like endlessly negotiating foreign buraucracy). Debugging is also more difficult than it should be.
d) Consequently, the GIMP developers would LIKE to have some Windows developers who regularly contribute, but it also is not very likely to happen.
e) Finally, there are various factors other than the source code that can cause problems. For example, the compiler can have bugs which cause correct code to compile into an incorrect result.

Just like on Linux, addressing these problems require a combination of developer time and user time. On Windows, there are far less developers, and the users are generally more clueless. If the results of this trouble you, I suggest you become a Windows GIMP contributor/developer.

While your points are generally true, there is no need to get defensive and to make this personal. I edited the personal quips in your post, let's keep to the facts, please. /Griatch

EDIT: I protest the neutering of this post. I don't take my words back! They were what I said; changing what I said is exactly the same thing as revising history - dishonest. It changes the meaning of others subsequent replies in undefined ways, too.

[bilbo]

0ion9's rant seems to validate the compliant.

[0ion9]

bilbo: I would say that there is no compliant's here, only a complaint.
But.. The GIMP developers are not here to do what you say! They volunteer their time to improve the GIMP on the things *they* think are necessary or fun or interesting. This is how opensource works.
If you want someone to cater to you, go pay somebody -- like Adobe -- plenty of money for the privilege, or do it yourself. You get out proportionally what you put in, as always. GIMP developers cannot produce Windows developers out of nowhere, the Windows developers must volunteer themselves! And then, perhaps ordinary users can ask these Windows developers to address X, Y, or Z Windows-specific issue. But only once there are already such developers working on GIMP! Until then, the only recourse that the users have is to volunteer THEMSELVES to address the issue.

Sure, we could use a how-to for building under Windows. Why don't you find out this info and write one? This is a profoundly ordinary attitude IMO.

I definitely did rant, and you've just seen some more of it. This is because Windows users often completely lack an understanding of and respect for software development, and I am just heartily sick of the various misguided or just plain disrespectful complaints springing from that, as are most of the core developers also AFAIK.
A more useful question might have been 'WHAT is the negativity'?

[PhotoComix]

0ion9

In general i agree on your points, but not on the most specific

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Sure, we could use a how-to for building under Windows.Why don't you find out this info and write one? This is a profoundly ordinary attitude IMO.

Nobody can't find information that are not on the net, (if there are should be in language as Japanese,or at the best in German, here i refer to English documentation, a similar documentation cannot be translated with automatic translation )

only somebody that successfully build on Windows recent version on GIMP may offer such information, and i believe if a little brainstorm effort on this done once, will help now and in the future both developers (will help them to be no more continually harassed by old trivial question , or at least to reply with a "please refer to this DOC" ) not only users

.should be not so hard for who already did it make a list of the dependencies needed (if done ONCE BUT WELL ,then may be updated even by others to never releases....but should be a basic structure to update,old how to are unusable because at that times was not gegl or babl to build ) ,add some tips for the process, and then check for a couple of weeks if are arrived some question on the matters that may need a reply, some points that need to be cleared by more details.if some tip may be added


JUST ONCE , with later just occasional help by the few expert in win in the Gimp staff ...in case of problem to update for new MAJOR releases

without that basically for windows users is possible only complain not take useful actions ..., (except then " actions" as bugzilla reports,)

[lylejk]

I too generally agree with 0ion9. The developers of the GIMP have done a fantastic job. I've been a user of GIMP for over 9 years now; still picking up new things as I play. As with PC, I've had problems figuring out the software side of things; actually attempted to figure out the GIMP Plugin compile (never even attempted to do a complete build of GIMP itself) even downloading MSYS, MinGW, and a few other tools, but, alas, though I'm not anymore unfortunately (fix PCs now), I was a hardware EE and did very little software development over the 10 years that I was an Engineer. I still continue to appreciate those that have this gift. Maybe one day, though, someone can create a handholding procedure of how all this works. I have no problem attempting things myself, but I learn 1000 times better when shown at least once. :)

[PhotoComix]

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I have no problem attempting things myself, but I learn 1000 times better when shown at least once. :)

You synthesize my point in this few words
the effort to do once but well a good "how to compile Gimp and gimp plugin on Windows" may be rewarding

After the standard reply "if you think it may done better, do by yourself and share" may be used again for who complain about buggy builds or missed binary for plugin on Windows


Withouth that is no too fair as reply
not when only few wizard know the trick and none of them has time or patience or motivations to put the details on paper .
...let say a how to as one a linux user will expect maybe scarying for average users, but usable with sufficient patience and motivation.

[0ion9]

PhotoComix said:

0ion9

In general i agree on your points, but not on the most specific

Quote

Sure, we could use a how-to for building under Windows.Why don't you find out this info and write one? This is a profoundly ordinary attitude IMO.

Nobody can't find information that are not on the net, (if there are should be in language as Japanese,or at the best in German, here i refer to English documentation, a similar documentation cannot be translated with automatic translation )

This is a language error, I think. in English, while 'find' means one thing, 'find out' also means 'discover'.
Anyway there is a known person who has at least some of this information, Jernej Simoncic, and I would guess he would be willing to explain at least some of it to a person who was going to use it to write a FAQ.

[PhotoComix]

will be welcome !

[bilbo]

0ion9 said:

Anyway there is a known person who has at least some of this information, Jernej Simoncic, and I would guess he would be willing to explain at least some of it to a person who was going to use it to write a FAQ.

This will be help everyone. My concern is the attitude that Windows users are idiots. Experiences, such as lylejk's, where people are ridiculed for submitting a bug report to the point that they no longer want to participate is just WRONG. And you wonder why you are having trouble adding Windows programmers? You complain that you don't want to be bashed, but have you ever considered that others might feel the same way?

I am a EE but I have not done any programming in a long time. I don't think anyone uses Fortran anymore anyway. I have attempted to do compiling under Windows, and found it a nightmare. The more people that you involve in this process, the easier it will be to determine if the problem is a build issue or a programing issue. Unless you are trying to tell us that GIMP is a Linux only program.

[0ion9]

bilbo said:

0ion9 said:

Anyway there is a known person who has at least some of this information, Jernej Simoncic, and I would guess he would be willing to explain at least some of it to a person who was going to use it to write a FAQ.

This will be help everyone. My concern is the attitude that Windows users are idiots.
Experiences, such as lylejk's, where people are ridiculed for submitting a bug report to the point that they no longer want to participate is just WRONG.

lylejk has used suggestive language without actually saying anything clear (for example, providing a link to the bug report in question). Until you have clear evidence, it doesn't make much sense to say this is just plain WRONG, RIGHT, FOOBLYWOOBLY, or whatever other word you care to assign to it.

All we know currently is that lylejk reported a bug (possibly related to GEGL) and found the way it was resolved offensive and/or discouraging. That doesn't mean much either way, without the contextual information like a link to the actual bug.
I'd like to see it, so we know what actually happened.

Quote

And you wonder why you are having trouble adding Windows programmers? You complain that you don't want to be bashed, but have you ever considered that others might feel the same way?

I am a EE but I have not done any programming in a long time. I don't think anyone uses Fortran anymore anyway. I have attempted to do compiling under Windows, and found it a nightmare. The

This is true (and not only for GIMP). Development is much more difficult on Windows, since the OS is not designed around it.

It's also true that GIMP is basically (but not only) a Linux program, since most of it was and is written and tested under Linux (and only secondarily under Windows).
This will remain the case until we get several consistent substantial contributors running Windows, or MacOSX etc, whether those contributors actually contribute code or just find bugs.
Two or three people who would consistently work on testing new things as they are implemented would be a great contribution to stability on Windows, since bugs are often most easily addressed at a time close to the time they were introduced.

[lylejk]

Didn't mean to stir the rouste. The issue in question that I created a report for had nothing to do with GEGL at that time. Had to do with the Dock. That was a few months ago. I'm not trying to descourage anybody from submitting an issue; just that I got, as I said earlier, a little taken back with a not so happy response. The solution was to just delete the dock and start over (this was after a GIMP update; don't remember which. Figured this one on my own by the way). Just adding the details for that particular issue and also to why I'll let others submit bugzillas. Not mad or angry, but I will add that if you do submit a bug, that you better be 100% its a bug and not an issue that can be worked around. :)

[bilbo]

0ion9 said:

since bugs are often most easily addressed at a time close to the time they were introduced.

This is true. The core of the discussion is that two people reported GIMP crashing when trying to run GECL. Not wanting to bother you with an invalid bug report, the discussion moved to whether the problem was GIMP of the way windows was compiled since the problem was not reported under the Linux version. This led to the frustration windows users have with only one build available and no one having much luck at building in a different manner.

Do you have an opinion or can you add something to the help us understand the issue? Could this be a build issue or a GIMP issue?

[0ion9]

lylejk:
I occasionally find that kind of issue when I upgrade to the latest GIMP (GIMP choking on my old config files or interpreting them in a surprising way.. )

Bilbo:
Well, I think it is probably not a GIMP issue, more likely a build issue or GEGL issue.
GEGL definitely is a lot less tested on Windows than GIMP is.

And you still need to be more clear. In gimp, there are two 'use GEGL' checkboxes, one for the Colors menu and one for the View menu, and the GEGL tool; which do you mean?.
On Linux, I myself can crash the GEGL tool, mainly because some operations that don't really make sense in the context are shown, and when I use them, bad or weird things happen. So if that is the problem, I could understand it being resolved INVALID, since the GEGL tool is pretty much a way to experiment at the moment rather than a serious tool. But, if you mean that as soon as you selected the GEGL tool it crashed,
then that is certainly a serious bug ; I remember that happening to me at some point under Linux.
Have you compared this with the behaviour of 2.7?

[Griatch]

bilbo said:

I don't think anyone uses Fortran anymore anyway.

I use Fortran professionally (Astronomers use it a lot). :)
.
Griatch

[willgoss]

GEGL seems to run well for me in version 2.7......

[PhotoComix]

Oion

sure the Gegl operation as somehow experimental some are even very cryptic , try some experimental and unknown feature by choosing random values,obviously may well lead to crash.
...will be hard to complain

But if try any gegl operation crash Gimp then is different and as far i understand this seems the problem reported

As now i try to rebuild on Ubuntu i didn't update Gimp on windows yet, so i can't confirm on my OS

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This led to the frustration windows users have with only one build available and no one having much luck at building in a different manner.

well the frustration is because they can't "do by yourself" even if they wish

That also may lead to react impolitely at the classic "If you do not like fix it..." reply, because that reply should be completed by a " here some links that may be useful , a patch ill be welcome" ...but in this case links will be missed , there is nothing to link

Most "fix by yourself" for gimp require to first build Gimp...
That may be always done by expert programmers, but if there is a guide may be done also by others

If not...well as now many few will be able to contribute at any level except for sending reports and lament problem

[PhotoComix]

And to clear the point i do not expect something as a " Compile your Gimp on Vista in 3 hours,for Dummies"

But a "Compile Gimp on Win for Noob programmers "will be already a partial but nice step, and i believe such guide will be soon offspring a
"Compile Gimp on Windows for advanced users (some pratice with command line is required )"

###############################################################################

Albert Einstein was a Genius " If you know ,you should be able to explain to your grandmother "

Suppose the Gimp Staff's Grandmother want build her GIMP on her crappy xp pc

She is somehow brilliant, she did some search and already installed on her PC MINgw and MSYS, and even downloaded the Gimp source code

Now what the grandmother should do, next ? :?:
she need some more info